The Four Initiations: Introduction

A great way to frame this discussion, my friend! Your elaboration, as always, is inspired and meaningful. That said, I will take the liberty of proposing the fourth question to the three relating to Good, True, and Beautiful . The question is, Who am I? And it's in line with the fact that the Western Enlightenment in its “disaster-mode”, as opposed to the “dignity-mode”, when liberating the three domains, got rid of the fourth main component, namely Spirit. This is consistent with elaborations in “Integral Spirituality” (KW, 2006) concerning not quadrants, but “judgements”, the main four being cognitive, aesthetic, spiritual and moral (for reference, see pages 183ff.). In short, modernity did produce its version of morals, art, and science, but not its version of spirituality, due to a terible line-level fallacy (the infamous LLF), blocking the spiritual line at mythic level. Then the Three, each in its own way, continue today to suppress the emergence of an authentic post/modern spirituality. There is of course, a 1st person, a 2nd person, and a 3rd person inquiry, but inquiry of what and by whom? Authentic spirituality explicitly refers to the Ground and Goal of them all, also being pursued through any and each of them, so it's useful to include it with the other three (which gives us 4x4 in this framework).

Godspeed:-),

Hokai

j - i do find it exciting reading about this - it's right up my strasse… and it nearly all made sense to me! keep up the great work. i especially like the experiential non-belief basis to it, and i'm looking forward to the expanded entries - based on what you have written, the aspects of human life you mention should all relate to each other harmoniously.

an evolving organic process that is about authentic relationship to truth, beauty and goodness

word! another strong step on the way to promoting an inclusive human beingness - as far as i understand it anyway.

recognizing the entire process and it's ground as being itself spirit.

you've lost me there…

hokai - would you mind clarifying:

- what is Spirit?
- what is the ground and goal of enquiry?
- do you see julian's approach as disastrous or dignified? in other words, does it suppress or include what you call Spirit?

best adam

no, i don't think it's waffling - it's what i believe to be the case, if i understand you correctly - the subjective experience of consciousness itself, which is limitless and unchanging (depending on the method of apprehension used). the pure experience of being…

so both the process and the space within which it arises are so to speak universal principles that co-originate in one another…..

ok - a bit waffly ; )  you're talking about aspects of consciousness which are universal human faculties readily accessible to all right? just add openness to experience and practise, and consciousness increasingly reveals itself…

even more so if layers of belief are not imposed upon the experiences imo. that's when i get really excited - because in my experience, the higher states of consciousness are very naturally human and are actually diminished by doctrinal interpretation, which can act as draglines on the apprehension of the present. the prescriptions for interpretation get in the way of the pure experience (which while being experienced is non-verbal anyway). basically, just the feeling of being alive - beyond interpretation - is truly amazing! school's out for ever!

the initiations you describe - especially the willingness to face experience directly beyond belief - and taken in combination, are highly unlikely to increase divisiveness personally and interpersonally - quite the opposite. in my experience, honouring all these aspects of self leads spontaneously to greater benevolence between people without subscribing to schools of tradition or theory. nor is positive thinking necessary. just turn up!

i wonder what the world would be like if children were taught to honour their direct experience of being within an appropriate rational framework, that experience being coached and drawn out of them, including the higher states of consciousness which we're talking about - and to integrate their experiences rationally, increasingly trusting their mind as it develops: true non-prescriptive enquiry in the service of enjoyment of the self and of life - pretty amazing i think… all aspects of consciousness and the mind and the body in constant flow with each other, as they actually are anyway! conception, thinking, and reality in harmony. ahhhhhh…..

i think you're very close to the mark with this stuff - and the approach good true and beautiful. if all these faculties are honoured and integrated, including body, mind, psychology, and consciousness, i don't see how a more deeply spiritual sense of being - in the richest human sense of actual spirituality - could result.

this is very much along the lines of what i'm working on. i might have slightly different preferences as regards combinations of modalities, or slightly different emphases and experience in different cognitive/ethical/philosophical/political aspects, but i applaud you in your work here. what you are doing is by any measure a positive step in the service of what i see as the most pressing human need - massive cultural education in how to think, feel, and be - authentically, true to all aspects of the self, and in awareness of how all the aspects of consciously evolving human beingness can relate to each other in a non-adversarial way if allowed to be experienced, and to be integrated rationally.

in turn, hope that wasn't too waffly either!

keep punchin'!

Hello Julian, well you really never know someone until you spar with them!lol

If this old Earth keeps revovling around the Sun for another 100 years, we are all going to need a format of practise very close to what you describe here,,,,,,

I've had this old slab of a body on enough massage/bodywork tables to know that the energies you talk of are real. There is nothing that your describing here that is offensive to any of the worlds religious traditions if interpreted in a modern/dynamic/progressive way.
Let's keep transcending and including for the good of all Humanity…….

Adam, i don't know what spirit is but i do know it calls on me to act in unconditional love and infinite compassion even while looking straight in the eyes of the ugliest brutalities. Surely, this was the heart and mindset of Christ at Golgotha…………..

Peace and Compassion, Andrew.

hi andrew

Let's keep transcending and including for the good of all Humanity

does that mean taking the best of what we've learned over the millennia, based on reason without fear or favour, then integrating it coherently, and promoting it wherever possible? if so - yeay!

i don't know what spirit is but i do know it calls on me to act in unconditional love and infinite compassion

i tend to think of things like conscience, intuition, ethics, and rationality in guiding action - is that the same thing?

even while looking straight in the eyes of the ugliest brutalities.

i don't think i've ever reached the dizzy heights of unconditional love and infinite compassion, other than as expansive feelings, and i'm not sure what it means in practise - in my experience the people who tend to promote such ideals as part of their religion or tradition can also tend not to have infinite compassion for those who don't share their belief in that system. as for brutalities, a compassionate ethical approach may include a bullet in the head for the people committing them if they won't play nice with the other kids long enough to take a course in bodymind integration…

Surely, this was the heart and mindset of Christ at Golgotha

with sincere respect to you andrew, whatever beliefs you may hold (i have no idea about that) - is it relevant? i can't vouch for the accuracy of the anecdotal evidence regarding someone's state of mind in the middle east 2000 odd years ago. i don't know what the best mental approach to take would be when being tortured to death. i'm not sure that compassion for the perps need be part of it. a good dose of witness consciousness might help accept what's happening - i wouldn't know. don't get me wrong - i'm all for empowering role models, archetypes, allegories etc, and if it helps to set a standard of behaviour then cool, but we don't really need to refer to ancient history to appreciate the virtues of love and compassion do we?

best adam

Good but misleading Julian.

To adequate shadow with heart, or emotions is very reductive. Shadow is not a body as the physical or the emotional or the mind one's. Shadow is a concept (conscious/unconscious) that pervades all bodies.

We have this notion of: emotions=unconscious, mind=conscious. I know you certainly don't think that way, but using Wilber's ILP modules is often misleading on that aspect.

Then we also adequate conscious with rational, and unconscious with irrational. I find that also misleading. As we all know that we can be aware of material that is irrational.

Consciousness/shadow pervades body, emotions, mind and spirit.

Then to adequate the spiritual body of ours(causal) with consciousness, well I do not agee on that one, but this is sunject to debate. Again, consciousness did not wait for spirit to be here. When the indians talked about the causal body, they meant soemthing else.

Patrick

Adam:

‘’higher states of consciousness are very naturally human and are actually diminished by doctrinal interpretation, which can act as draglines on the apprehension of the present. the prescriptions for interpretation get in the way of the pure experience (which while being experienced is non-verbal anyway). basically, just the feeling of being alive - beyond interpretation - is truly amazing! school’s out for ever!’’

By Pure Experience I take it you mean experience unfiltered by shadow (fears)? Like a flow state? A drop off of body/mind? I am smoking what your rolling Adam, but two things (or maybe more as I start wafflingly trying to write my thoughts)

1. By the map of Spiral Dynamics, or Levels of Consciousness, each level we achieve will require a new heroic journey. Each level will imho test us, and testing involves complexity and fear. So, I believe School won’t ever be out, it’ll just become less fearful, feels that way personally.

2. At some point we are challenged to interpret, but for a different reasons at every stage. For example rational thought is good at simple stuff, but you finally have to interpret that it doesn’t solve everything before you move on up a level (what your thought was Good, Beautiful and True actually wasn’t). Consequently, the next level relies on you to realign yourself with taking back rational thought as a partial truth. And I have no clue about the next one cause I think its pretty complex and I am just wading in!! All Im saying is that draglines are partial too, because I believe our MAJOR goal is not just to evolve upwards/onwards but to continue to understand how we really can communicate this (build the bridge) for those at some previous stage, in a way meaningful for them.

And Julian,

Could you give some thought to the fact(?) that if fear is the biggest problem in all quadrants, and states, or lets just say our life!, then Shadow is half of all the work? I just had the thought that if pure experience is ‘god-like’, then Shadow must be ‘devil-like’… not to use historical religious references here, but you know what I’m getting at…

Ok now my brain hurts…

yo sanjuro

By Pure Experience I take it you mean experience unfiltered by shadow (fears)? Like a flow state?

well, that's not how i would characterise my own growth. SD is only a generalised model, and i think growth happens in all sorts of ways, often only realised after the event, often as a process of largely subconscious integration of experience. so - for me anyway - the journey is having an orientation of growth and questioning one's assumptions, and then that growth happening sometimes incrementally, sometimes seismically. i don't think it's as explicit as passing through discrete stages with clear rites of passage, in my experience it's much more organic and haphazard and imbalanced. again, practise (see blog post above) helps to make perfect. (p.s. i'm not on commission, i just support ways of realising values which i think are important).

formalised ritual rites of passage are another thing again, and can also be transformative…

Each level will imho test us, and testing involves complexity and fear. So, I believe School won’t ever be out, it’ll just become less fearful, feels that way personally.

Hello everyone,
 
  Wow Julian, great topic. I love the process of initiation. Didn't always. To agree to enter an initiatory process is to be willing to sacrifice one's self image. Egos hate that sacrifice. My ego equates “loss of face” with loss of self. But lying down on the mat, showing up and being willing to continue no matter what is an act of courage that few people are ready to take.
   I will do some writing offline about this but there is a very real phenomenon that I have seen take place in breathwork time and again that is best summarized as “the seduction of the spirit”. Here's a condensed version:
  Psyche says “Hey sailor! You lookin' for a good time?”
  Ego replies ” Oh yeah Baby! Let's do some heavy breathing!”
  ” Sounds good little one, why don't you just lie down on this mat,  listen to the music and begin to connect your breath.”
  “Okay, <breath> < breath> < breath> OH MY GOD!!!”
  “Keep breathing sweetheart. Just keep breathing….”

I am convalescing and taking oxycodone. Can you tell?

connecting the inhale and the exhale,
coyote

Adam, is that a firebird you are playing?
 
You know how modems do a ‘handshake’ to sort out what protocol is being used, so they confirm they are using the same language, I am laughing at how our labels and words are our own clumsy ways at communicating!
 
So my friend, I understand the difference between flow-state and pure ‘experience’. We grok.
 
I am totally with you on the idea that our growth doesn’t fit a map as such, mine hasn’t either, and I don’t think anyone else has. But the concept is simplified in the map, not to reduce the ‘idea of the uniqueness of our own journeys’, but simply I think to play with as starting point to help index/rationlise our experiences. This is very helpful for communicating the sheer expanse of the journey symbolically. It is of course difficult to do verbally! There is nothing discrete about anyones own life… except in hindsight perhaps… that our personal pattern emerges… life isnt basic arithmetic… more grokking.
 
Fear is less, as I grow and evolve. I play guitar too, and I don’t fear that, etc etc. When I say fear I mean that it is everywhere, and it’s the fundamental issue. I live in fear… but I live in love too, joy too, but then, its not those experiences that need the work… just the fear, the shadow. Again words, meaning,…. But you hear the song yeh?
 
The schools of doctrine have a baby and a bathwater… life and anti-life… this is where our evolved rubber hits the road… how to integrate that shadow and gain that wisdom?
 
I agree that rational thought is part of the whole, but perhaps you are strong in that suite already my friend, it is not my strength, and as a weak part of my being it tends to be a bit shadow laden and less evolved than my feeling/intuitive strength. Integration is slow, but purposeful! :)
 
The house must be in order, yes, but we also must do it while its not yet in order… this is why I am here, this is our calling, not to wait for any perfection (and not to be gung-ho either) to build the insight to begin with what I know and tap into your healthy perspectives, to engage with the people in my path / life / work / play sooner, without fear and without dogma, and I will stumble, but I feel like Im getting fitter. These little discussions are really like interval training for me! Hard, but quick results! Thanks Julian!
 
The belief system of others I think are where we begin to truly see the workings of social order and its chaos. I realise I do not have those beliefs, am outside, and I have to know how to talk to those that are inside it with some compassion AND wisdom. Their lack of personal responsibility create some of my fears, and my autonomous personal responsibility creates some of theirs. As Robert Kagen points out, for them to evolve, is to ask them to lose their 'religion'. To kill their concept of life. Oh it’s a tricky one!
 
We are playing the same tune my friend… probably Comfortably Numb? :-)

Che Bella Giornata!

Sanjuro, Julian, Adam, et al

  Okay off topic, sort of. Best 3 minutes of guitar ever, as played by Erik Mongrain

stay cool,
c

Julian,

I'm not in the “flow” of discussion here, but never mind. The four division made by Wilber for the ILP kit that you took as a canevas for your presentation is, I think a working tool for the embodyment of the practice, but not a cognitive framework as you use it.

I disagree with you, when you put shadow in the heart module. Actually, as you know, blocked emotions are more at the third chakras and not the fourth (which is the heart). So if we'd call it the “gut” module I'd be happier!

Then you say that what people need to work on is what has been rejected by society, which is grief, shame, despair and the like. You imply those are emotions in the shadow. Again, I'll state my point of view: society doesn't only reject emotions. It rejects bodily parts, it rejects ideas.

To think that shadow is mostly centered on the emotional level is to be non-integral. And that is actually the great lesson we can learn from body therapy like Yoga, Grinberg, eutonie and the like: shadow is deeply associated with the body. By making the body conscious, we help resolve traumas.

We may see body, emotions, mind and spirit as vertical, but then shadow is horizontal…or the opposite. but they are not on the same axis.

So if you say that shadow is mainly centered on the emotional level, I may say that you are undermining the branch on which you are sitting: the importance of bodily work and making it conscious.

Indeed, if shadow is emotionaly centered, then psychotherapy is the tool!!! But that is exactly what after a 100 years of psychotherpay we hint is not right: we need body, emotion, mind and spirit therapy, in order to unravel the shadow material that's imbedded in those levels.

My question is the following: are you using KW's ideas as a frame that is supposed to be correct to put your ideas in, or are you testing rationaly and with full intensity any ideas, may they be from someone who has a authority?

The tone is a bit harsh, but my concern is sincere..I think.

and as there certainly was something before the big bang…let us be happy.

Patrick

coyote - firstly, all wishes for a speedy and whole healing

secondly, i haven't forgotten your response on the other blog re bk & the work etc - you may be surprised how much commonality we have there both in theory and practise! i wish i could get paid for this so i could spend more time on it! (actually i'm working on a way but shhh)

thirdly, erik mongrain - respect! put a smile on my face - thanks dude!

Hey Adam, first off, best wishes in your endeavors at becoming a full time writer and blogger (you have a fan already,lol).

Yes, those would all be good aspects of transcending and including……….

Hmm, conscience,intuition,reason-yes, if you mean by spirit the immaterial part/parts of a Human being. I think that i was alluding to the idea of a first cause, and it's in that context that i was referring. And in that context, i think i'll stick to my original assertion- i don't know what spirit is/ or isn't for that matter. And for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that i do know what the first cause is/isn't; what good is my knowing if i can't prove it to you objectively, i mean i could prove to you that the weak force of gravity exists by holding an object in my hand and letting it go, you would see that the object would fall to the ground and not the sky. i could them jump really high into the air and show you that even i, as lame as i can be can defy gravity for a second. But first cause, i don't know. S. Hawking suggests that if there was one , it left the building a split second after the big bang. But hey, what else would a physicist say?
Ah, i was wondering if you would catch me on that one. In my own life i've had to learn how to be extremely compassionate and forgiving, and tolerant and kind; when to be quite honest, i might have perferred to kill. So, this is not a idealistic concept to me, it's a living part of my spirituality. Which isn't to say that we people should not do everything possible to strive for Justice, equality, and Human dignity……..
Adam, is it not possible, maybe, perhaps that your the one that is being idealistic in your ideas of a world without religion. If it could be, i personally wouldn't have a problem with it. But my opinion is that religion isn't leaving this planet any time soon. so, because of that reality ,i argue for a new way to interpret religions that lead to healthy mind-sets of tolerance, understanding, respect etc. etc. I argue that maybe we could accept someone elses view of what god is or isn't without the need to commit atrocious acts like murder. Adam, personally, i love religion when it's practiced with love and kindness and peace and tolerance. I also love Science and i imagine i don't feel all that different from how Carl Sagan felt about these issues.
As for Christ, got to keep all those Buddhists over at Integral Institute honest!lol

If they can talk about the wonderful awesome solar allegory Gautama, then i think it's only fair that i can talk about that wonderful awesome Solar allegory Jesus!lol
Of course, i don't think either one of those guys were mythical allegories!

Bur hey, what do i know,?Rock and Roll, young man! Rock and Roll!

Julian,

I'm sure we agree on the basic concept. But the conceptualisation of it can differ.

What is interesting with an Integral model is that it allows us to have a new and hopefully better narrative about human beings.

I don't think that society represses emotions. I think society represses desires and aspect of the self. These repression manifests themselves then equally in the body, the emotional system, the mind and the spirit. These “bodies” (body/emotion/mind/spirit) are conceptualized as developmental lines in Wilber's model. But the shadow is not a developmental line in itself. It is more a transversal concept.

For Jung, the shadow was never exclusively an emotional concept, and in fact he was pretty integral about it. His conceptualization of the four functions (thought-mind, emotion, sensation-body, intuition-spirit) and the fact that each can be in the shadow or fully conscious demonstrate the pervasiveness of the conscious/shadow idea in all four bodies.

Thinking that emotions are the doorway to the shadow is only partially true and it is an idea from which a lot of us have come back. The cathartic method, used profusely in the 70's has failed to provide us with a grounded and integral approach, and Freud did often say that catharsis is not enough to heal people.

This focus on emotion in therapy is, for me, a wrong path. It is certainly gratifying, ‘cause the emotional liberation is impressive. Our societies value these emotional sharing.

But again, an Integral model needs to address practically and conceptually all levels and all lines of development in an even and balanced manner.

That is why I'm reacting against the over simplified idea of mixing shadow and emotional level: it perpetuates an old notion in a new frame.

But I shall leave it here for now. Keep up the work.

Blessings,

Patrick

Julian he wrote: Deep feeling is a doorway into the soulful language of the heart. Rather than avoiding, denying or judging our emotions, 21st Century Spirituality invites an open space for deep feeling wisdom and authentic healing. The second initiation is into our emotional intelligence. Using heart-based meditation and breathing techniques I encourage non-judgmental awareness of the feeling body and creates a sacred space for healing, forgiveness and love. This lays the foundation for profound shadow-work. In our “shadow bag” we carry everything that has been denied, repressed, avoided, demonized etc.. For all of us this means rage, grief, shame, fear, trauma, bbut it can also mean sexuality, creativity, intelligence, intution and many other things that our family or society deemed unacceptable for us to express/develop.

Wakajawaka, says I. It is easy to see where Patrick says is the problem with this, for Julian began his explication with…”Deep feeling is a doorway into the soulful language of the heart. Rather than avoiding, denying or judging our emotions…etc” but he wrote it could mean sexuality, creativity et all which arent emotions but expressions.

For me, and this a leap mind you….not that it was talked about here in this entry or comment field… but we see alot of stereotyped 'shadow stuff' - you know, anger, fear, sexual desire, domination and all the rest of it. KW's chapter on the shadow clearly shows that bias. Where does anyone talk about the shadow elements like creativity or heroic abilities? Surely that is what a great portion of society is doing when hughe numbers root for their 'hero', for example. Surely we need to also address the shadow projections of our 'goodies' along with our 'baddies' - just an errant thought.

And to echo patrick and the good people here - good work!

Namaste Julian!

Could you give a new zaadzter a hand and invite me to your “friends list” so that I can access your blog via mine.  Still getting in the groove here, not getting “invite friend” on my profile or yours.

Thanx! sam

Julian,
I'm already a part of your community, your not a part of mine!

I'll email tech. dept. about my profile page missing “invite friend” option - sam

With all due apologies,

There once was a yogi named Jules
Who believed that the AQAL map rules
He would type out his blog
And verbally flog
All pre-trans fallacy fools.

As an anti-metaphysician
He would happily gut all traditions
Though a yogi by trade
He would often tirade
That his jousters assume the “position”.

Now a passionate friend of the bawdy
He massaged all the knots from her nadis
Letting Eros flow free
For the world all to see
What was loosed was no longer so naughty.

Now by making the Shadow his friend
He insisted we all must descend
Where the nitty gets gritty,
The chakras get shitty
And all our repressed crap will end.

to be continued….maybe
c

coyote,
put that to music. just right for retreat and any funky friday class ;0)
love your comments.

may you be filled with patience and love as you heal. 

annie

To All Of You I Bow,

Great discussion, all facets.  Okay, I suck at writing but I totally get all that is being said.  I know you will have to take my word on that statement and reading my post will not support my position.

I do a lot of things ass backwards.  You all obviously started your journeys aware and on a large rationality raft.  I started mine on a popsicle stick and in a tremendous amount of pain. I came to a point of change or die.  The love I had for my children, not for myself, is what pushed me forward.  Do any of you remember Kirk Douglas in The Vikings (1958)?  Remember that scene where Kirk is going to a certain death.  He is going to be shoved into a deep pit with a pack of starving wolves to be ripped apart.  What does Kirk do?  He takes off his blindfold, requests his sword, and proceeds to yell out at the top of his lungs, sword thrusting into the air as he leaps into the pit to his death. Yeah that's what it was like for me to jump into my shadow pit.

I don't see any clear references to Eros or Pain kick starting the journey, Julian.

I was lucky enough to find a well trained spiritual counselor who in retrospect provided me an ocean of love (Eros) when I was incapable of loving myself.  We started with shadow and I picked up many shadow tools that I utilize to this day.  I know all you have effective tools too or you wouldn't be here now.  I'd love to hear more of your personal experiences using your shadow tools.  I'd say easing up on the pain caused by my humongous shadow allowed me to start working on my body.   My yoga practice has been the strongest tool for me in developing self-awareness.  The yoga and shadow work helped me to look at my mind and my reflection skills started to grow.  I'm still not sure I have anything more than remedial rationality skills.

My husband (uber rational) will confirm I'm definitely irrational but ironically we often end up in the same place.  How is that?  Eros? 

Reflection versus Rationality I'd love to hear your thoughts on these words but of course be nice and don't attack me.  I used to find rational sparring mean and unloving but now I can see the beauty and dare say it love in the sport. But I'm not getting into the ring ‘cause I'm a puny rational thought weakling. 

Although, I did manage to beat the crap out of my magenta thinking mother.  Yeah, mom loves “What the Bleep” and probably “The Secret” too.  I thought argued rationality would pull the women I love into a better place.  It didn't and maybe it was my lack of skillful means because at the end of numerous scenarios rationality looked like a steel toe boot kicking my mom in all her chakras.

When I was able to let my mom be who she is right now and love her as lusciously as possible (yes labeled water bottle and all) things got better.  Who knows maybe mom will change, maybe not.  I love her and I want her to really know that as deeply and as expansively as possible.

Which leads me to Paradox, baby.  I don't see anyone peppering their posts with paradox.

I know you people have something to say about living your integral lives with paradox.

Hard work.  Shadow work, body work, mind work, inquiry, reflection these lead me to

my breath, presence, and compassion. They are the fruits of my labor which I hope to share with everyone I meet and especially my family and friends.

When I was effectively able to love myself via the unglamorous hard (push that rock up the mountain) work loving other people by comparison has been a walk in the park.  I know I'm preaching to the choir here. Quite frankly, the only people reading these blogs are probably the choir. 

Why are we swimming upstream when so many people aren't?  All of you posting, you're hardcore.  You'll scrape forward; none of you could stop if you tried.  Why?  Why you?

Why me? 

I am also dyslexic and writing is really really hard.

Namaste,

Denise

PS
I'd love invites to your friends list.

Denise

All,

Sorry I come out sounding screechy.  I am overwhelmed.  Everyone posting is a rare breed.

I love the theory but I want to hear your personal experiences on how the theory has opened up your points of view too.  I want to hear about your tools and your ideas on their effectiveness in your lives.  You people are the real integral deal.

Thank you Julian, you are a true bodhisattva in my view.  Your CD's are wonderful and I have enlightened my yoga practice.  I went out and got a massage so I could relate to the trigger point areas for myself.

Julian, I can't wait to read your in-depth posts on the initiations. Please include how the experience of “waving” affected/ effected your life.

Namaste,

Denise  

Hi Denise welcome to the thread. (thanks for the note and get well wishes)

    Ah yes, the translation from theory to practice… that is the piece that most people have trouble with. Practice has to be regular to be effective. I remember reading about a woman who went on a seven day retreat. She felt really connected to all that is, healed of her daily hurts and worries, free from the negativity of her everyday life. Then someone cut her off in traffic. Bye Bye peace and serenity. Hello road warrior bitch. In a blink. That's all of us to some extent. There are no magic short cuts although the market in short cuts is huge.

  Three day retreats, or five day, or four weeks or whatever, are always in the end exactly as described_ “retreats”. The art of moving forward from the point of return is that of daily practice. I learned this the hard way. I think most of us do. There are a significant number of “workshop junkies” out there who careen from seminar to seminar never really translating the temporary states they might experience into stable stages of life. They don't really try. The reason is simple enough. Going from temporary states to stable stage is hard work. It can be embarrassing. There is truth in the saying that if you think you are enlightened go have Thanksgiving dinner with your extended family and see what happens.

  Denise I was tickled by your mentioning that your mom puts positive words on her water bottles. On the one hand, we all know the power of advertising and the associative strength of images and experience. So if I were to have the word “love” on my waterbottle it might serve many purposes. It might be merely magical thinking, that the printed word turns the water into an elixir which has it owns strength and power like a drug. It might be a simple reminder to myself that attitude is important and I should remember my gratitude for having the simple gift of potable water_ billions do not. It could serve as an object of meditation where my 'intention” is focussed on the water to “imprint” the molecules with the “energy” of some tangible thing called “love” which will then have a healthier effect on my tissues than water without “intention”. Good luck proving that one. Interestingly it is not an open and shut case. Dean Radin has recently done some interesting experiments with focussed intention and chocolate. He uses all the appropriate scientific protocols and has discovered non-trivial correlations. I have only heard him speak about this experiment and have been unable to find a link. He is someone however, who has a wonderfully grounded and sober approach to studying psi phenomena. I've enjoyed his books The Conscious Universe and Entangled Minds
more later,
c

Coyoteyogi,

Yes, yes, yes!!! To all that you said.  You articulate radical paradox surfer. Keep the book lists coming.  Keep healing.

Namaste,

 Denise

Sanjuro,
 

:) to “higher states of conciousness…”

Loved love in the time of cholera, Marques is a great mystical realist!

CAMELOT,

I can relate to your post on shadow work.  Creativity has been a great source for me…tapping into it…releasing it…I discovered a whole new world in me and it connected me to others in a way I had never experienced.

Denise-great posts!

I'd love to articulate some of my experiences with you (I've invited you to my friends list).

Re not able to stop moving- I think we all keep moving whether we want to or not- it's life-but how much one “moves” and grows becomes a  conscious effort, if one so choses to participate…

Much love.

Hi Sam,

Thank you for the invite.  My interior experience to the invitation  is one of acceptance and I find  stillness in that, a place to rest.  The ego stroke isn't bad either.
I'd love to hear your experiences and insights.
Namaste,
Denise

julian, patrick…awesome dialog; am understanding both…patrick thanx for a more depth level of what julian touched on…you compliment each other!

j…your dedication is truly beautiful…

always, star.